fico the fur
Hufflepuff Alumni
Why'd you say "halleluia" if it means nothin' to ya'?
Posts: 964
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Post by fico the fur on Mar 24, 2003 14:31:29 GMT -5
what would this person-who-isn't-you be like? i don't mean hair-color, but i mean what significant things would have to be different?
and that's an interesting idea, that the mirror would show someone different. because technically, that's what everyone wants. a man might want to be a rich man; that rich man would have found some way to become rich, which the other man hadn't been able to do, so they are two different people. i think you've struck the heart of it, axe, in saying you would be someone else. sort of like harry's greatest fear is fear itself, in a weird way.
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Post by En on Mar 24, 2003 15:06:37 GMT -5
Er... that's actually the scariest thing I've ever heard, Mr. Nadir. Because it's one thing to want something you don't have, and another thing entirely to not even want your self -- the life you've got, the things you think about or have learned, or any of the good things that might happen to you I mean, sure, all of us have wished we could magically change into something else. I would love to be a college professor right this minute. But I wouldn't want to give up everything that's ever happened to me, including my ideas and hopes and friendships. I wouldn't want to give up the me-ness of me.
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Calantha
Gryffindor Alumni
My name is Luck, this is my song, I happened by when you were gone
Posts: 4,493
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Post by Calantha on Mar 24, 2003 19:45:34 GMT -5
I don't know, in a way, I can completely understand seeing someone else. Personally, I would not see someone else, but your vision would change over time, right? I mean, if you have lived your life so far, without enjoying it, or if you are having a tough time, or maybe you just are sick of "you" you might see someone else in the mirror...
I mean, think about it, in everyday life we have people that want to change who they are. They recreate themselves based on what they think they should be, or how they should be to be happy, and that's almost like looking into the mirror and seeing someone else.
But Druss Nadir, like En was saying, there must be something which would tie you down to you...
I guess the question is, would you be willing to give up that youness for a new slate? Because at first your answer might be yes, but chances are it is going to change.
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Post by Balance on Mar 25, 2003 3:53:21 GMT -5
I'd see myself as captain of the Enterprise, in a world where there's no more bigotry, racism, or hatred of any kind. Knowledge is free to all the world, in all its forms. There's no such thing as money, so there's no envy either.
Some would say that there'd be nothing left to strive for, then, making existence pointless. But the quest, would be to find more peoples, understand the origins of things better, refine your personal ideas and ideals, and find any way possible to help out your fellow man, woman, or other.
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Post by En on Mar 25, 2003 11:00:37 GMT -5
Ditto that, Drego. There is always something left to strive for. Wisdom, love, knowledge, improvement, whatever we value; and in a world like that, we would be free to value the highest and most beautiful parts of humanity, instead of worrying about things like the gas bill. And cheers to you for envisioning a world without bigotry. I think Gene Roddenberry would high-five you on that one.
Mr. Nadir / Cal -- I guess I just can't imagine actually wanting to give up everything about yourself. I mean, I know some people have very unfortunate lives. I've been one. But I wouldn't give any of it up, even if I'd had the chance then; because who's to say any other life would be any better? And would I appreciate the greenness of a new leaf if I were somebody else? Would I love the same music? Would I read the same books? What if my new life was as a suburban-living, SUV-driving accountant who only liked Top 40 music and flank steak and never understood great happiness, because he never understood great sadness?
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Calantha
Gryffindor Alumni
My name is Luck, this is my song, I happened by when you were gone
Posts: 4,493
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Post by Calantha on Mar 25, 2003 18:01:20 GMT -5
Hmmm...
Yes, but if you are truly unhappy with your life, the chances are, seeing that green leaf isn't going to make a whole lot of difference, I mean, I totally get what you are saying, and me, well...I'd never want to get rid of me, but I can see where someone might come from if they chose someone else, because they are unhappy, because they don't find joy anymore.
And I don't know, Druss, this isn't directed towards you, but some people just don't get enjoyment out of the little things in life, ya know what I'm saying?
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Post by En on Mar 25, 2003 18:37:15 GMT -5
*has been thinking about this for hours*
*steps up to the mirror just to see what's in there now*
O.o
*tries for a sec to look like nothing interesting just happened*
Ooookay... *decides to admit it to Calantha* that's interesting. I just looked in there and guess what I saw? *drops voice* Loads of people. Hundreds of them. And... all of them were me. Only each of us was doing something different. One was writing in a book, one was giving some kid a piggyback ride, one was working in a garden. And not all of us even looked alike. In fact, the only way I could tell they were all me... is because they were all doing something they loved, and usually for other people, just because that's the kind of person I am.
I honestly believe that every life can be reclaimed, because every life has the capacity for joy. Because we're alive. If we were dead, we would be out of luck. But while we're alive, there are still possibilities.
I'm not saying I don't understand wanting something different. I do. I want out of my career so bad it hurts. I'm just saying... does anyone really have to start all the way over? Can't this life become wonderful, maybe more so because it's been lived in pain or sorrow so far?
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Calantha
Gryffindor Alumni
My name is Luck, this is my song, I happened by when you were gone
Posts: 4,493
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Post by Calantha on Mar 25, 2003 20:30:44 GMT -5
Yes, that life can become wonderful, but just imagine how much it would take for some people, some people who just really don't have it in them...
I am like the least likely person to say that some people don't have it in them to do something, because I believe strongly that each indvidual can become the person they truly wish to be, but as one of those indivuals, if you don't believe that, if you can't convince yourself of that, then it seems near impossible, or even impossible to change your life around for the best. I've been very close to people who don't think that life can get any better, and I have seen the outcomes of it...and if someone sees another person in the mirror, if someone isn't tied to their life, well then I guess I have just come to accept it. Because...everyone can't be me. You have no idea how much that mirror image is awesome, like if people could do that, I would love it... and like you, I guess that is just the sort of person I am too, but there are a lot of people that aren't. I see it with some of the kids I work with, I see it with friends, and I see it with family. Does anyone have to start over? I guess it depends on what the person believes...if you get it in your mind that you do need to start over, then I guess your view on your life, no matter how much you have learned, or how wonderful your joy could become, is sort of off balanced. *sighs* I don't know.
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Post by coldmercurywitch on Mar 27, 2003 2:50:05 GMT -5
Right now at this very moment I look into the mirror and I see nothing. Just the reflection of the room I'm in. I'm not there at all. I'm not there to get hurt, or to have to listen to mum or to be used. If I'm not there no-one can do anything to me or make me do what they want.
Does anyone else have even moments when they would look in the mirror and see that?
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Post by En on Mar 27, 2003 10:02:18 GMT -5
Yes, Nie, I have moments when I want that too.
But I will never see that in the mirror, because that's not what I want most.
What I want most is to be able to help people, really help people, when they need it -- and to be able to walk away when they don't need it, or when I can't really help. And to go on being, and learning, and finding beautiful things, things worth living for.
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Post by battleaxe on Mar 27, 2003 13:27:24 GMT -5
Ummm.
Can I just say something? Although I love that you are having a deep conversation about what I said, you are looking too far, you are joining two puzzles together!
All I was saying really, well actually if you want the truth, I was taking the mick a bit out of the whole idea of seeing what you mostly want!
Take a second to think, if you see, in the mirror, someone staring back at you, who is happy in some way, or who has something that you really want, or what have you, then they arent you!
You is what you are, not what you want to be, the person that stares back at you from the mirror, is someone else, you may as well be looking through a window at the jealous kid next door.
An ordinary mirror, shows you, as you are, this mirror, this idea of what you most deeply want, doesnt show you, it shows what you want, which is not yourself!
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Post by En on Mar 27, 2003 13:30:24 GMT -5
But what are we then, if not the sum of what has happened to us and what we want to happen?
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Post by battleaxe on Mar 27, 2003 13:32:55 GMT -5
We are what we are!
Some kid wants to be famous will look in there, and see Tom Cruise or something!
That means they want to be Tom Cruise, Tom Cruise is not who they are, Tom Cruise is Tom Cruise, and the kid is the kid!
Now that is a very drastic example, but you see what I am getting at?
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Post by En on Mar 27, 2003 15:04:05 GMT -5
I see what you are getting at, yes, but I don't agree with you.
I don't think what we are is separate from what we want. People are just as much creatures of belief and desire as we are beings with places in life and physical bodies. And what we choose to do about our beliefs and desires are what make us who we are.
In terms of your example, the kid who looks in the mirror and sees Tom Cruise is a kid who wants to be Tom Cruise, who will either do something about it or not do something about it. He's not a kid, period, and by the way he sees Tom Cruise in the mirror, period; he is a kid-who-wants-to-be-Tom-Cruise. And what we think about the kid, and how we relate to him, and whether we find him to be good, depends on what we think about his being a kid-who-wants-to-be-Tom-Cruise, and what we think of what he chooses to do or not to do about wanting to be Tom Cruise.
To say that you would rather just give up all that you are and be someone else -- that's like saying you don't want to be human. That you don't want to participate in the cumbersome, complicated, messy, mistake-filled, ugly, slow, mystifying, stupefying, yet tangible and sometimes even beautiful life that is the human lot. I just don't think that any life you suddenly snatch for your own is going to be any different or better, if what you really want is not to make choices or have your own desires for yourself.
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Post by battleaxe on Mar 27, 2003 16:01:37 GMT -5
The kid yes, the kid is the kid who wants to be Tom Cruise, but the kid is not Tom Cruise, the kid wants to be Tom Cruise, but isnt, Tom Cruise is a different person! the same as every persons dream, is a differant person!
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