The biggest spoiler of all

[KoNeko]

Hey, I know we've had heaps of theories about whether Dumbledore really is dead, or whether Snape really is a death eater, or whatnot.

We've already had theories that Snape isn't really a death eater, but he agreed to help Dumbledore and Dumbledore faked his death, or that the person in the white tomb isn't dumbledore but the death eater that was killed in the Battle of Hogwarts (). But these theories are sort of all over the place, and I think we need to really have a single topic to put all the clues together.

For example - one thing that has been puzzling me the most is the fact that the US and UK versions of HBP have different bits of text in relation to the Dumbeldore/Draco exchange when Draco tries to kill Dumbledore. I know that we said there was one line that had been removed from the UK text. NOT SO! There are MANY lines that have been removed!

Here is text in the UK version:

"He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got not choice." "Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...when the time comes we can protect him too...come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore. (HBP UK Edition pg 552)

And in the US version - I've highlighted the added bits:

"He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me -- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother -- it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...When the time comes we can protect him too. Come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore. (HBP US Edition pg 591)

Now... did JK write the US version and then think the clues were too obvious and then took them out again for the UK version? Maybe Dumbledore faked his death? Maybe I'm just in denial? What do you think?

[Sarah]

i think dumbledore really did die. *shrugs*

my question is--why does Jk feel the need to omit tidbits like that? i can understand changing troll bogey to troll booger (most americans don't know what the hell a bogey is ), but why take out important parts? perhaps she is making a game out of it. like, "hah! i've taken out these parts to confuse you hp lovers! that's what you get! now go out and buy more HP merchandise!" sorry, overdramatic. maybe she wants the US version to be more revealing and leave the UK citizens in the dust...

[KoNeko]

I don't know. There are several things about dumbledore faking his death that I've thought of and we've actually discussed it in the other topic. Stuff mostly to do with Snape and everything, since we don't know if Snape is REALLY a death eater or something. The reason for that is, well, there's the unbreakable vow, but what is he vowing to do? You never know. And maybe if he was not vowing to help Draco kill Dumbledore, but to get the death eaters through the cupboard?

Then there's the whole thing about the spells you can do without speaking. Maybe that's what Snape did on Dumbledore to throw him out the window and he only said Avada Kedavra (but didn't mean it). Besides, in other cases when you do the Avada Kedavra spell people fall down dead on the spot, not fly out the window. I don't know. It just doesn't make sense.

[Lucius]

what also doesnt make sense with that theory or yours is that dumbledore was blown over the castle wall and fell like 4 stories. If the spell didnt the fall certainly did, plus Harry was unfrozen but dumbledore had no time to do it, it was because the spell no longer worked cause the caster was dead. I am seriously willing to place money on dumbledore being dead. Snape killed dumbledore to save himself, he couldnt keep up the double crossing of the order any more.Snape is now truely evil and that was the greatest way J.K. Rowling could have showed it, by snape killing the only man who ever trusted him and kept him out of Azkaban just because if he didnt he would have died too.

[AlderadDangarian]

Did Snape have an Unbreakable vow with Dumbledore? Think back to the conversation Harry had with Hagrid. Kind of a coincidence...

I think Dumbledore was "killed" but was re-born (aka the phoenix that Harry thought he saw fly from the body). Dumbledore is now "dead" and will come back [He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me -- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother -- it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...When the time comes we can protect him too. Come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore. (HBP US Edition pg 591)]

Did you notice how Snape twitched when he was making the one with Malfoy? Can someone have two unbreakable vows?

[Sarah]

lucius said:

what also doesnt make sense with that theory or yours is that dumbledore was blown over the castle wall and fell like 4 stories. If the spell didnt the fall certainly did, plus Harry was unfrozen but dumbledore had no time to do it, it was because the spell no longer worked cause the caster was dead. I am seriously willing to place money on dumbledore being dead. Snape killed dumbledore to save himself, he couldnt keep up the double crossing of the order any more.Snape is now truely evil and that was the greatest way J.K. Rowling could have showed it, by snape killing the only man who ever trusted him and kept him out of Azkaban just because if he didnt he would have died too.

I agree. Dumbledore's got to be dead, and Snape is one evil guy. and dumbledore trusted the bastard. grrrrr.....revenge will be sweet....*reality check needed--they're BOOK characters... *

[KoNeko]

That's the thing. Even if Dumbledore fell 4 stories and was like, not dead but severely injured or something, can't he still be revived? (And if he was still alive, he could still undo the spell on Harry.) Sure, maybe Madam Pomfrey can't do it, but what about Fawkes? Phoenix tears incredible have healing powers, as we've already seen. There are pages and pages where it's mentioned that everyone was listening to a phoenix lament somewhere on the grounds... does this mean something else is going on?

I don't know, I just think the issue is not as clear cut as you may think. I think there is something more to this than just, "Oh, Snape cast a spell on Dumbledore who died and fell out a window (not necessarily in that order)". We already know that JK laces all her stories with clues, you just have to look for them.

[Lianne]

if moody was int he area he could see harry eh, moody could have lifted the spell too.

i would seriously cry if dumble dore wasnt dead.

i want a us copy

[Sarah]

You have a point, Ko. But the phoenix song---it was a mourning song, i bet. but the way you put it makes me think....

I'm still leaning towards dead though.
I guess we'll just have to wait another two or three years, eh? (gah...by then, i'll be graduated from high school!)

[KoNeko]

Yeah, Moody and his super eye.

I also don't think Snape did it because it makes the whole story of Snape being a bad guy too easy to swallow. I think one of the ultimate tragedies of the HP story will be something like Harry tracks down Snape and has a big battle with him and defeats him but then finds out Snape was trying to protect him or something. Or maybe Harry and Voldie have a big showdown and Snape saves Harry at the cost of his own life or something. Or maybe Snape is dying and he's saying that he's been trying to protect Harry since whenever, and Harry doesn't believe him and then hey! Dumbledore will appear from somewhere and Harry will realise the error that he's made but it's too late and Snape dies or whatnot. Such drama!

[Sarah]

Lol. Do you watch the O.C.? Or, perhaps, soap operas?
Those are very possible theories, though. i love the way everyone's brains work around here--i don't analyze, i stick with facts and shrug at missing or confusing points...

[KoNeko]

I love the OC. I think it's absolutely hilarious. But that's not the point. Shhhhhh!!

Okay, this is sort of a crossover with the Dumbledore's pensieve topic, but I think it might be relevant to the whole death thing with Dumbly. There are several memories that Dumbledore keeps in little glass vials, right? Some of these memories are his. We've already seen that you can remove memories to put into a pensieve through your wand - Sluggy does it as well when Harry gets him really drunk (!?).

Now, I'm curious as to why Dumbledore stored his own memory into one of those glass vials. I mean, he stored Morfin's one there because Morfin died, so you can't do the funny thing with the wand on him now. Or if someone is no longer accessible then you have the little vial memory to rely on. Did Dumbledore store his own memory in a vial so it could be available to Harry (or someone else) later when he wasn't? I guess this argument could go to both support that Dumbledore is unavailable because he's dead, or because he's 1) in some ethereal form like the phoenix alderad mentioned or 2) alive and hiding somewhere. But I'm just curious. Why did he store his own memories in vials?

[Sarah]

perhaps those were memories he wanted to carry around with him--like to hearings and trials or something. he wouldn't want to have to lug that pensieve around everywhere, now would he? and if he just told them what he saw (at a crime, for instance), he would use the memories in the vial to prove it, and possibly stick another bad egg in azkaban...possibility or no?

[dianella]

I think that the clue she's leaving isn't that Dumbledore is faking his death, but that Regulus Black has done so. He's the RAB that took the horcrux and maybe he's not dead!

[AlderadDangarian]

I have been thinking about Dumbledore--Here are a few points:
1) Why was there such a large cauldron of Polyjuice Potion just lying around?
2) Doesn't the watch the Ron gets seem very close to being the one that Dumbledore owns?
3) WHY is Dumbledore's memory in the vial?
4) What is with his change of speech--on more than one occasion, it seems that Dumbledore uses an exclamation that he has never used in any of the previous books--"Oho" but someone else has?

Will the real Dumbledore please stand up?