Don't Ever Read These

[j.s.p.]

I haven't read that book, so I don't know. I do agree that reading should be pleasurable, but I don't think it should be a placating pleasure. I think reading should be done with an eye for something more than that. I didn't like 1984 because I see the world as turning out that way...but it's still a great book and I might actually read it again.

But, still, there are some mediocre books that are bad because one of the charachters got something they didn't deserve. I finished Laura Esquivel's Like Water For Chocolate not to long ago, and didn't like it for just that reason. But there wasn't anything in there to redeam it.

[Sara_Jayne]

I would hardly call The Bell Jar placatingly pleasureable, but at the end of it, I went away feeling like ok I understand, I get it now, I know what shes talking about. Hemingway, in his writing, life, and being, struck me as a pompus bastard who didn't know anything about women and liked painting them badly.

It's hard to respect anyone, when you learn things about them like that, I am no raging feminist, but ego maniac males just bother me. And knowing about Hemingway, makes it rather hard to relate, understand, or respect him. Even if he did have talent.

[j.s.p.]

See, I don't know. I think you can, to some extent, separate Art from the Artist. It doesn't much matter how the art came about, just that it's good when it does. Take, for instance, the movie The Pianist. It won this year's best director for Polanski...who is a convicted criminal in the US (which is why he lives in France). Should he recieve the award? If the directing is good enough.

When it is important about the artist: if someone is writing about something and they've done that something, I will respect them more. Like, Hemmingway wrote about Spain and lived in Spain. I'm going to "trust" his books on Spain more than my friend Bob's, because Bob has never been to Spain.

[Sara_Jayne]

I guess... as a writer who uses her own experances with life, there is no seperation from art and the artist. When I write a poem, story, whatever its me, its my blood sweat and tear stained soul on the page, (with the exception of Fics because those are started at someone elses promting) its my passions, fear and longing that comes out.... What Im saying, by repeating myself, is to me, Art is the Artist. But then I have a tendancies to create only when i suffer so Im a nut *shrug*

[j.s.p.]

Clearly the artist goes into every work of art they create. I'm not denying that. But we, as consumers of the art, should judge the art not by it's relationship with the artist, but by its relationship with us and society. For example, I don't care that ODB went to jail (and just got released!) because he is a good rapper. I only care that Eminem is homophobic because his music is homophobic. If the music wasn't that way, I wouldn't care nearly as much.

[Sara_Jayne]

But I dont know that I agree with that, because as a woman who has been beaten and a dozen other things, not only is his music abusive, but its degreading towards women, now show me a rapper that doesnt say crap like "Bitches aint nothing but sluts and tricks" then more power to them despite their back ground. Of of course thats what makes me dislike Hemingway, not because he was a misogynistic bastard but because he was an abusive misogynistic bastard. There are somethings, as a person, in my situation, I can not over look. Bad tempers, drinking, drug use, each to his own, you rape beat or other wise degrade women and suddenly I dont care who the hell you are, what talent you have, you're nothing more to me then your actions.

But that is personal experance with many abusive acolcholic misogynists, and i don't expect anyone else to agree with my reasoning.

[En]

It is true that art can be read, or seen, or experienced by itself. You don't have to know about Emily Dickinson's life to read her poetry. It might be more interesting if you did, but it's not necessary.

I guess... I personally don't care to try to acquire a taste for Eminem, because in this society, art is a consumable commodity, and when there is music out there that I can buy done by people I respect, music that makes me think, or laugh, or feel part of the human community, or want to do something good, I would rather spend my money on that. In this world (in which we liiive iiinn...) there aren't many other ways to cast your vote in entertainment. (so liiive and let diiiieee... )

That said, I don't actually know anything about Hemingway's personal life other than that he liked sailing and shot himself. And I think I'll read Sun Also Rises before I try to learn anything else about him, because he is a Nobel winner and that alone should earn him some benefit of the doubt; but I am also likely to read in a historical context. Like, I'll probably be thinking, "Remember, this was before 1968. Remember, this was before 1968."

[Sara_Jayne]

Personally for me, esp with things like poetry, I like to... try and understand where someone is comming from, what was happening in their life at that tiem to make them write that piece, I like to get into peoples heads and root around... but thats because my own head is so chalk full of interesting tidbits about where my writing comes from and how it relates to me and my life and things Ive experanced. *shrugs* Im analitical and feel others emotions strongly.

[j.s.p.]

I understand that people don't like art because of something the artist did. And it makes a certain amount of sense and is something I struggle with...should I support art that does not offend me even if something the person did in life offends me? It's a hard question to answer. And En is right...with art/entertainment as a consumerable commodity, we can choose what to buy and what not to buy...and if you don't like something, convince others that it's bad. I struggle a lot with someone like Eminem because, on one hand, he's the best pure rapper making music today--his skillz are surpassed by no one. But...he is misogynistic and homophobic, two things I don't respect. I have a burned copy of his latest album mostly because I refused to buy it. And I rarely listen to it because I have better-all-around rap music.

(On a sidenote, I do not agree with your characterization of rap music as inherrently misogynistic. It is not. One of my favourite rappers is Del tha Funkee Homosapien, who is completely not misogynistic. Or take someone like Ice-T on O.G. Original Gangster, who is very pro-woman. Or take the two greatest rap groups of all time, Public Enemy and Run D.M.C. -- both are not misogynistic. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Rap music is not what you think it is.)

[Sara_Jayne]

(Jack darling, youre talking mostly about old school rappers, and there was a time I was heavy into that, and R&B and Soul, I loved Iced T, not just as a rapper but as an actor as well, Im not saying they all are, Im saying most new rappers, most of the ones topping the charts today, are, if not misogynistic, into treating women as objects, things you dress up, sleep with and give the boot the next morning. 50 Cent, "Im inta having sex I aint into makin love" Nelly, when hes not singing about his friggin shoes, its all about sex, money, bling bling, and drugs. The music isnt about anything anymore. Its not about something thats real or comming from nothing into something. its about money, power, and shoes.)

[j.s.p.]

Ophelia's said:

...now show me a rapper that doesnt say crap like "Bitches aint nothing but sluts and tricks" then more power to them despite their back ground.

I didn't know you wanted current rappers. I'll agree with you that much of the rap that gets played on the radio and MTV is misogynistic, etc. But I am completely unwilling to say that rap--even current rap--is inherently misogynistic or that there aren't any non-misogynistic rappers. Del, for example, is one of them. He's not big and he rarely gets played on the radio (although he is the rapper for the Gorillaz), but he is still fairly big in the underground. And there are some great rap songs that are not misogynistic--Eminem's first single off of 8 Mile or DMX's Who We Be (Brilliant!).

Chuck D once said that rap music is the Black CNN. It seems to be still somewhat relevant.

[Sara_Jayne]

my main problem with Em is that well.. for every good song he puts out, theres five more tracks of bullshit. Im not saying its inherantly against women, Im saying it *appears* to be because of what gets played, you dont hear stuff from the underground. Come on you grew up in Idaho, you know what the stations are like, cookie cutter forms of whatevers in the top 30 four times an hour. So you get Christina's Dirty, 50s In da Club, Nellys Hot In here, maybe a few GC songs, *shrug* the good stuff, is kept underground for a reason, its not polished up and shiney. So the turn rap *appears* to have taken is totally against women having any dignaty. They wouldnt even play Eve's "Love is Blind" (which by the way is one of my favourite songs).

[j.s.p.]

I always listened to the X. But when I go home now, I can hardly listen to anything on the radio. This is doubly hard because that's all my sister listens to. In the past three years I've about tripled my CD collection from 220 to almost 600. There are maybe 20 CDs I regret getting. No matter. I think that there is so much good music out there that there's no reason to listen to bad music. Even the X plays occasionally a good song, but, you're right, it's mostly cookie cutter nu-metal. There are occasionally good songs that come out that get popular, but not a lot.

I'm not sure how much really is underground. It's more that you just have to know where to look for it. A lot of Popular music is bad because people don't know what they want...or, worse, they allow the ONE music station that owns like 80% of all music stations or MTV's TRL to tell them what is good. And once something is "good", clones start popping up. And not even good clones. People buy into a "look" and not the "music." Last night I saw the video for a band called "The Sounds." Their a cheap Strokes knock-off. Why do the Sounds have a video? Because the Strokes. Are the Sounds good? No. Why do people buy into it? Because it's a mentality. Etc.

In any case, back to the point: You're right, rap does appear to be that way. I'm just saying that it's not. And I don't know this Eve song.

[Sara_Jayne]

*squeals* I love Eve, that particular song is about *cough* her killing the man who abused and murdered her best friend, about how hard it was to watch as this beautiful person just kept going back to this horrbile man... my male friends viewed it as anti-male, I saw it as a statement about love, I'll post the lyrics later.

Ahem... we got sort of off topic lol the thread is about books we wouldn't read again

[Isbister15]

Well, I haven't been around much during the past week, but just to respond to something Abby (?) said about Catcher... Believe me, I'm as angsty, bitter, resentful and angry as the next guy (or girl) and pretty much always have been. It's not that I didn't relate to Holden, I just couldn't stand listening to this guy whine about everything. Kinda made me want to write a book about all the ways I feel I've been wronged or cheated in life just to see if people would think it was "deep" or "powerful" or a "classic." And just to cover my bases, I'm not begrudging anyone the right to enjoy or connect with the book; I'm just saying I don't like it.

Boo said:

Izzy, you once said something about the book relating to John Lennon?

Yeah, Rita, the guy who murdered John Lennon was obsessed with the book and thought of himself as Holden. He apparently felt John was evil and had sold out from his Beatle days. He'd lined his copy of Catcher with tons of notes and was carrying it on him when he killed Lennon.