Education and family - tough times, tough choices

[Fluffy]

In the new Facebook friend group and in conversations with a few of you from time to time, I hear a pair of themes: one, that debt and the value of education aren't necessarily balancing for you as they did just a generation ago, and two, that those of you in committed relationships are saving up before marriage or children.

We are very much children of our times - we have a global network of friends, IRL and online; we worry about jobs and whether governments will provide the safety nets for us that they did for our parents' generation; we economize - and I wonder, how do you feel about this? Those of you who are putting off family, what are your plans, and what would help ensure the outcome you want? Those of you who are putting off education, what would make it affordable, desirable, or possible for you to continue schooling?

I ask because I'm curious - I often try to explain to older people who visit my bookshop why I don't share their lifestyles, expectations for life, priorities - and I, like many of you, have chosen not to pursue higher degrees I might otherwise have wanted and children I might otherwise have had by now for mainly economic reasons.

Not to sound like my great-grandparents, who, incidentally, grew up during the Great Depression, but what's the world coming to when people eye the cost before doing things like getting on in the world?

[Calantha]

Oh wow, it's been forever since I've checked on this site...

I put off getting a degree last year. I was accepted into the theatre program in Belfast, and I couldn't see taking out loans to cover tuition even after some scholarship opportunities-- particularly against the exchange rate--for an arguably superfluous degree.

This year I did a lot of thinking on the matter, and I'm currently applying to programs and reapplying to the program in Belfast. Why the change? I was teaching Joyce's Dubliners to my advanced seniors, and afterward a student came to me and said she really enjoyed the class today. I inquired as to why she found this day more interesting than the others, and she said she could tell I had more passion for this collection than the others I've taught. It was really this moment when I realized I couldn't afford to not do what I'm passionate about. I may be an adequate teacher, maybe even a good teacher, most of the time, but education, which was my passion for such a long time, is no longer the thing that drives me.

I'll try to go back to school the cheapest way possible, and maybe it won't be this year if the right deal doesn't come along. My parents didn't receive college educations, which is neither here nor there, but I think because both wanted degrees but it wasn't affordable or convenient, they always supported me in continuing my education if it's what I really wanted. There is that fear, though, that I will be caught in debt. And I still ask myself, what price would I pay for happiness in my career, in myself, in my situation? Risk of a foreclosed home? A lifetime of debt? I'm not sure anymore. I think if you had asked me when I first joined this board, I would have said money didn't matter too much to me. Funny how things work out.

[Fluffy]

Speaking as someone who had to go into a lot of debt to get to where I am now - it's not as scary as it sounds. It is scary in this job market and no mistake, but careful management pays off, especially if it puts you where you can do what matters to you. In the long run, you have to balance your happiness and your impact on others' happiness with the risks.

You've always had a lot of practical intelligence as well as wittiness and other kinds of smarts, so I don't doubt you'll make a good decision. We all have to live in the times, and the times are tight. We've all got to find the ways we can make things better on the budgets that we can handle.

I wish I had a million dollars so I could give out TD scholarships

p.s. DUBLINERS!! <3

[Calantha]

(I know. Dubliners is great! I was so happy to share it with my students this year, and while some didn't get into it, some really took to Joyce's style. Dare I throw Portrait at them? And thank you. A lot. Things do seem to have a way of working out, don't they?)

I keep in contact over FB with some of my old students. They talk to me a lot about how rough things are right now. A lot of very bright kids who would have done really well in a four-year institution (and probably needed to get away from mom and dad) chose to work first or to go to a community college until money worked out. I teach for the community college at my school through the AP course, and there was a huge spike the last five years in the amount of kids entering into the community college. A friend of mine is a teacher for the University of Phoenix, and I'm always really surprised at the amount of enrollment there. I'm sure part of it is convenience, but I bet a large part of it is also money and loan types. It will be interesting to see how things work out. I was listening to NPR while trying to escape the snowstorm from NYC, and there was a discussion about the possibility of another Industrial Revolution. I have a sneaking suspicion it fits into this topic rather well...

[Fluffy]

Another Industrial Revolution? Hmm... if you remember which show, I'd certainly like to find that. I've been heartened by signs of young people creating new companies, but it's so hard to run a small business in the first place, let alone to find a niche and fill it well - I have a couple of friends working on MBAs and find that, while they are learning a lot about running big companies, they don't really understand how to run a small one.

[Rue]

It feels so good coming back into The Leaky Cauldron to discuss things like this.

My husband and I still have a lot more to prepare before we have kids because we feel like the longer we wait, the nicer our lifestyle will be. I think that's partially because it's tougher now than it used to be. We're still going through a long and expensive visa process that wasn't as long or as expensive 10 or 20 years ago, plus the cost of our electric and food and everything bills just seem to keep going up and swallowing our income without our wages increasing proportionately. We've been married nearly 3 years, yet I feel like we've only achieved about a year's worth of progress toward our goals.

Secondly, I think we're more ambitious than our parents were. We could easily both get full-time jobs and within two years get a mortgage to a starter home. But instead we want to both work from a combination home / office that's big enough to be comfortable for a family and have room for two to three employees to come to work. That'll take years to achieve.

If we had had kids any time in the past 3 years we know we would've been able to support them. Especially living in the UK we know that our kids will always have healthcare, and there's a benefit system if either of us were to become disabled or lose our jobs. But we want a lot more than that. We'd rather have our kids grow up in an amazing environment where my husband and I can easily pick a sick kid up from school or take a break from work to take them to swimming lessons without it being stressful or impossible to leave our workplace. We don't have that yet, and having kids before we do would just take up time and energy that we should be spending working toward our dream.

I'm not sure what has to happen before we'll think we're prepared to have kids, since financially the longer we wait the better. Physically, the longest I'd want to wait to have our first kid is age 30, which would provide plenty of extra time for alternative treatments if we were to run into complications. I'm 23 now and I really hope I don't have to wait 7 years to have kids. I've always wanted to have them and lately I've been having baby dreams that feel so real when I wake up they're getting frustrating to have. So I'm hoping that within 3 to 4 years we'll have gotten a mortgage on an okay house, I'll have trained enough to work from home full-time, and Joe will have at least 2 employees with enough steady contracts for us to feel financially secure. Then I think we'll be ready.

[Calantha]

@ En, it was a discussion off of an article on Marketplace, I think. A nanotechnology field, I think? There was also one before Thanksgiving (I have a forty-five minute commute every other day...there's a lot of NPR time...) about a guy who recycled carpet and there was some commentary back and forth on it, too.

[KoNeko]

I guess we could look at these are different factors that we need to arrange in order of priority:

Children, Education, Marriage, Finances/Economic stuff.

I'm not sure if I'm missing anything besides those from this topic. For me, I'm pretty much putting them in this order:
Education, Finances, Marriage, Children.

I guess one of the things I want to do really is make sure I have me sorted out before I could possibly consider trying to involve other people. It's sort of like when you fly on a plane and in the safety briefing they tell you to deal with your own oxygen mask before assisting others. I guess, it's like, if I mess up, then with the first two I'm only messing myself up there, but after that if I screw up then I'm taking other people down with me, and I don't want to be in a position where I know that I could have done otherwise.

This is probably amplified in the case of children, since at least in a (grownup) relationship the other party concerned is somewhat contributorily responsible for how things turn out. But kids are, at least right off the bat, completely dependent on you not to screw things up. And, I'm just not in the right kind of financial position for myself, let alone anyone else right now (although Z is a tenure-track professor so he has the moneys, but then again I wouldn't want to be dependent on other people). Plus, I wouldn't want to feel like I was doing a halfassed job raising a child, so I'd only want to have one if I was really in a position to take care of it. Of course, this doesn't work so well in the world of academia where 1) you're stupidly nomadic and will probably be in a different city every couple of years, if not every year; 2) for the first couple of years you would be busy with teaching responsibilties or else you won't get tenure; 3) after that you need to be churning out a shit ton of publications so you don't have time to be taking 9 months or more off to raise a child.

So I can't say that I'm all about jumping on the "I want babies" bandwagon, but the only thing that might make me reconsider is the biological factor. I'm 30, and given that I won't be able to surpass the "shit ton of publications" and "tenure" things anytime soon, any child that I have within a reasonably viable age to have children will be subjected to some kind of suboptimal growing up environment. Either that, or I'd be like 60 when they finish high school.

Sometimes I feel like I have made terrible life choices.

[Fluffy]

I worry about that, too, Ko. But there were so many tradeoffs - I could have chosen a life partner who wouldn't have left (not that I realized that would happen at the time), I could have kept the office job until I had more money before trying small business - but on the other hand, I didn't know he'd leave, and I am glad I am in business for myself rather than working at a job I really didn't like much in an environment that wasn't good for me as a person. Here, I've had a chance to work with people I love doing something I enjoy and respect myself for doing.

Whether the person I'm with now can stay, we still don't know. On the other hand, at least from my point of view, this is a very healthy and mutually giving relationship, the most so of any I've had; if I were going to have a child, I'd want to do so in this relationship. When/if he gets tenure somewhere close enough to stay here - that's still years off, and I'm going to hit 33 this spring. So it would probably end up being either a huge medical risk or adoption

It is true, as Rue points out, that we all seem to want more security before kids than previous generations did. (I think of it more that way than ambitious, though I'm hardly one to dismiss the influence of ambition on my career track. Buying five businesses in five years is not indicative of a person willing to take the slow and steady. On the other hand, a significant part of my reason for expanding so much was because I wanted to be able to get the business to the point of having employees to cover a day off for me each week and to the point of having steadier income.)

On the other hand, looking at the world around us, in which undergrad doesn't really get you a specialized job anymore, it only makes sense that we'd want security before kids.

If I had to put the four factors in order:

Finances, Marriage, Kids, Education

mostly because I have all the education I need for the job I'll have until/unless the business fails (and it isn't in danger, just not progressing as fast as I wanted). I would like to get a PhD before I die, but given my age, I'm out of time to do that before kids.

"Marriage" is also a tricky one for me now - I'd do it if a) I felt sure we'd really be able to do the "til death do us part" thing and b) it provided substantial advantages, but really, if I'm with a fully employed person who gets partner healthcare benefits and schools wouldn't be dumb about letting me pick up my kid, I don't know that I'd get married again. Not enough faith, I guess. In both senses of the word.

[hermoine]

Reading all your interesting posts it strikes me how different the reality I live in is.

Education here is free and we are paid an amount of money each month, as minimal as it may be + a yearly lump sum for educational purposes. And I suppose if it weren't for all of that I wouldn't be where I am now. Mind, our University, being the only one in the country is far from stellar. Its standard rating continues to drop and my course is among the worst in terms of quality, what with being taught by a bunch of lawyers who really couldn't give a hoot apart from earning some extra money at the side, and pretty crappy administration and bureaucracy.
But yeah all in all, for all it's worth, I'm studying what I want, am more than halfway through now and even though I don't know if I'll be able to find a job once I graduate in 3 years' time, at least I'm on the road to get there.

Had all of this not been possible I think I still would have tried hook or shnook to do it. Of course it would have involved getting a loan and moving to the UK to study and then maybe I'd have moved to Luxembourg to raise enough money to pay it all off.

As my reality stands right now, I still think I would qualify my priorities as:-
Education, Finances, Marriage, Children

In that my education has always come first no matter what. I mainly work in summer teaching English to foreign students and it pays well. But once I graduate and hopefully land a job somewhere it'll be a while till I'm financially stable since the early lawyer days don't really pay well here and then the salary doubles and triples generally past the 4-year mark.

I do want to get married someday but probably not until I'm like 28-30. Considering that I graduate when I'm 24, by the time I start earning my first real salary it'll be a while until I'm financially sound enough to afford paying off a loan on a house of €100,000+ (that's around $131,000+) which is basically the amount you need to buy a decent place to live in in an area not too polluted.

[Lianne]

I think i am the weirdo here.. i have never seen myself wanting or having children. So kids are definitely not a priority for me at all. I got my undergrad, and i am still paying off some debt (just over 10 grand) that i gathered while in school. However, to me i see that debt as being worth it. I want to go back to school for visual arts or photography just because it is how i love to spend my time. But i would also really liek to get my finances in check...

However, if i were given the opportunity to travel i don't think i would feel bad if i did go deeper into debt. For me i want to experience things and live a little before it is "too late" to be able to.

Marriage is fine, i can see myself being married one day, but for now i am happy where i am and i would like to have money before getting married. My boyfrined and i want to build an earthship on some land so we can live sustainably with minimal bills. I am sure marriage isn't something in his head right now either. We are both young and have a lot to do still.

I guess if i were to prioritize the four it would be
Finances, Education, Marriage, Children

But i want to put travel in there too, alongside finances. Life experience is important to me and i have not been able to do much travelling other than when i went to texas and when i drove out to BC. I have plenty of places to go still before i settle myself in one spot for a while.

I hope i haven't gone off on too great a tangent. This is just how i see my life right now. Money is an issue but to me, not that great of an issue. I expect to have some sort of debt, everything is expensive and no one is getting paid enough! But right now i am living for me, and i want to wait until my thirties at least if i decide that i want children.

[Calantha]

It has taken me a LONG time to put fiances down in my priorities list. I come from a long line of very, very frugal farmers. Growing up, if we could find a use for something, it had to be used, and my parents lived a "sustainable" lifestyle long before it was cool. My mom made all our clothes because buying cloth in bulk is cheaper than buying clothes in a store...and she's also a mad seamstress. As the youngest, I rarely got new clothes from a store unless if some married-into-the-family relative got it for me. I don't really think we were poor, but we were thrifty and ridiculously practical. (When I started living on my own during college, my Christmas and birthday presents were sides of beef and pork, the new hatch of chickens, a basil plant, etc.) I don't worry about money now, but I also still have almost the exact same habits I grew up with.

But I think they're dependent on each other, really.

Education, because ever since I was little, I was told this would secure finances later in life. I also am inherently selfish, and education is what makes me happy and fulfilled at the moment.
followed by
Marriage, because if I'm in love, I should be married. I'm a traditionalist in that respect, I guess. But I also worry about the selfish side of education, so marriage is second.
Finances, because children are expensive, and I think I need to be older to really make sure my focus is on my kids. Given the nature of my job, though, children seem to come first no matter what. Again, I worry about finances, but not in a way that it would stop me from doing anything. It's in a way that means I just find the best, thrifty, and most reasonable way to do the things I want to do.
Children, because I want them, but I want them to have all the advantages of having parents who have money to send them to good schools, who don't worry about finances, and who can spoil them rotten...yeah, I know I will.

[Pkia]

I'm noticing that, even if we don't have the same priorities, we do have the same general attitude.

For myself, I think:

Education -> Finances -> Marriage -> Children

Each of these has their own value and importance to me that are probably not that dissimilar from anyone else. Having a good education and continuous learning (through university or independently) is part of my self-image. I see the value in it and can see how much of a difference it has made my my world views. It also allows me to participate in a career I love and will help me get to other places I want to go in that field. Financial stability is comforting to not have to worry about money and know that you can do/get the things you want/to do. Marriage is a partnership, commitment, security, support and happiness. Children are their own reward.

I want all of these things and can't order them in terms of what I want the most/least because I feel like they are a chain of what leads to what.

For me, education allows me to get involved in a career that will lead to some financial stability. Achieving financial stability is a prerequisite for me for marriage because it is an equal partnership and symbolizes being a responsible adult. Marriage is a prerequisite for me for children because I feel a positive, loving home life is important for children.

I see a similar line of thinking in everyone's posts. The ordering just seems to demonstrate how we feel one will lead to the other, and sometimes what level we feel is required to get to the next goal.

I think the one hang-up we all seem to have is that these are sequential, independent steps with some expiry dates. I don't see anything wrong in delaying parts of your life until you feel comfortable moving onto the next step. As long as you are doing what makes you happy right now, who cares? You can still change how you achieve your future goals and have plenty of time ahead of you. The notion of achieving things by [x] age is something I think we can all agree only serves to stress you out and keeps you from other positive opportunities (i.e. if I followed my original plan, I'd be married and pregnant with my first right now. Instead, I got my Masters, lived in Australia, England and spend my time traveling. Very different from each other, both good options). And there are also nuances and compromises we can make. Situationally, getting married while in school could help achieve financial stability, too. These steps don't have to be separate entities, and blending them together can help you achieve your general goals and the implied overarching goal, being happy.

[Lianne]

I agree a bit here. I know some people who are married while going to school. It could be easier financially if your partner helps support your education. Especially if they are in the working world...
I have this problem see, i dont like to work My job is only seasonal so i work 5-6 months per year. Right now i am on my lay off period and it works for me. I am trying to start a business so that i never have to work for anyone but me again!

I don't know if this is too off topic but were any of you like me at one point? Where you "knew" you didnt want kids? I have mothering instincts like to take care of people and what not but i can't see myself happy with having children. I have never thought that i might want kids one day, and i still can't see myself feeling that way. Everyone tells me, "oh Lianne you silly girl you will change your mind" but i am not sure i will. This is a problem in my life because i know my boyfriend does want kids one day, and he is 4.5 years older than i am and his sister has 2 kids, and two of three of his step sisters have kids already... he loves children! I can see this being a problem in our future because i know it is something he wants from his own life. But even knowing that i can't see myself wanting to have a baby. It is an 18 year commitment and i dont know if i am ready to give up myself to have a child! Any thoughts?

[nancy]

The popular Education -- Finances -- Marriage -- Children, is also mine.

Hey Li, I'm not sure I want kids. I'm not sure what I would *do* with a kid. I want my (younger) sisters or my friends to start having them because then I'd get all the fun parts of having kids, like taking them to parks and teaching them about books and science (yes, I'm a nerd and I want to pass it on), going to planetariums with them, whatever.... but if they were my kids, well, that brings up two very important points, namely:
1. You have to deal with the bad part of having a kid, tantrums, their not getting into X school, having to plan stuff in life.
2. What if you don't *like* your kids? That's gotta suck, but it really does scare me a little. What if they're stupid, go to middle school and become bullies, etc., etc.? I mean I know I'd love any kid of mine, but I'm scared about not liking them (more than I like them, I'm sure I wouldn't like them all the time anyway).
Anyway, I think I will end up having children, only much later in life than many people here. My mother has started pressuring me about it, she had me when she was my age... So, that sucks.
Maybe it sounds selfish, but I'm also freaked out about pregnancy.

This might be related... since I was 14 and my mum took me to Canada, I've known I want to move out of here. I don't think I could've put it into words back then, but seeing cities that were so multicultural, that had such good public transportation systems, cultural and entertainment options --- it opened my eyes to things I had never seen here. And that's the kind of life I want! That's why I want to move to Berlin or Hamburg, that's why I have never allowed myself a serious relationship - I'm seeing friends who are in couples struggle about what to do when they don't want the same thing in terms of education, and I don't want to deal with that, not before I go. Especially since the urge to move has done nothing but grow stronger in the past year or two, partially because I feel like I need to get away, partially because of the shit that's going on here in Mexico, and partially because I spent the summer in Germany, it was the best 8 weeks of my life, and I want to recreate that (which, granted, is not a good reason).
I think after I've achieved this I'll see the rest more clearly.