Time-Turner Dilemma and other things

[Rubes]

But they didn't see it happen, did they? They just heard the axe hit something, and they assumed it was Buckbeak. What Phoenix said was what I always thought, about the thing at Hagrid's Hut.

I like Phoenix's idea, with the equal-but-opposite Harry-Tom thing. You should work on it mate

[Isbister15]

(I didn't know you were online. )

Yes, you guys are right that in the book they did not see Buckbeak getting the axe. What I just said is that, if it is true that Buckbeak never was sliced because of the Time-Turner, then I don't like that in the movie the kids actually see the execution. The viewer doesn't, but the kids do.

[Sphi]

*thinks* Okay, now I'm confused again with the whole Time Turner-PoA thing. I've always thought that in the book, Buckbeak was executed, but then they went back and saved him, as well as Sirius (except he never really died). If that were true, then maybe the rule is that you can't bring people back to life. But now you guys are saying that Buckbeak was never killed at all? I think it's the PoA movie...don't get me wrong, I loved it, but Cuaron seems to have brought up all these issues about time and how everything's moving at the same time, so there's really only ever one truth (the jigsaw puzzle). But maybe Rowling was trying to convey the same idea in the books and I just missed it?

Isbister15 said:

However, I kind of doubt that Harry is a sort of alternate version of Riddle. I think JKR made a point of detailing all the similarities between them to depict what Harry would be up against, but also to show how evil someone in Harry/Riddle's position could become (basically, that it would be possible for Harry to go that route as well). Good theory, though.

*nods* I'm sorta the same way. I really like the theory too, Phoenix, but I think Rowling has tried to be pretty clear that Harry and Voldemort aren't the same, despite the similarities, especially in CoS.

[Isbister15]

Yep, I agree with that whole paragraph, SP.

Word! said:

*thinks* Okay, now I'm confused again with the whole Time Turner-PoA thing. I've always thought that in the book, Buckbeak was executed, but then they went back and saved him, as well as Sirius (except he never really died). If that were true, then maybe the rule is that you can't bring people back to life. But now you guys are saying that Buckbeak was never killed at all? I think it's the PoA movie...don't get me wrong, I loved it, but Cuaron seems to have brought up all these issues about time and how everything's moving at the same time, so there's really only ever one truth (the jigsaw puzzle). But maybe Rowling was trying to convey the same idea in the books and I just missed it?

What I'm saying is that in the movie they actually saw the death. In the book it is certainly implied that he died. They saw him there, saw the executioner, and heard the thud of the axe as well as Hagrid crying. But in the book they all looked away as the axe was swung.....

wait a sec. I know what I was saying there but that just made me think. Is that exactly what they saw in the book? Because if they saw all that then there's no way Buckbeak was never killed because Hermione and Harry couldn't have saved him right in front of everyone's eyes, right?

Blech, I have to get me PoA book out.

[Rubes]

I see what you're saying Sphi, but for some reason, I always assumed Buckbeak didn't get dead.

Do you remember the stones-through-the-window Sphi and Izzy? That'll help

Future Harry and Herm = Ha2 and He2

The stones were thrown through the window in real time, by He2. So, applying what Ha2 and He2 do in real time, saving Buckbeak means that in real time, he was never killed anyway.

Hoom hoom. That's a shocking explanation. Phoenix knows what I mean Anyway, apply the stones theory with the Buckbeak exectuion in your own way, and maybe that will help.

Izzy, you said that they turned away from the exectuion. Doesn't that mean they didn't see it? Ha2 and He2 never saved Buckbeak in front of everybody. Ha1, He1, Ro1, Hag1, Ex1, Mi1 were all in the hut, and then Ha1, He1 and Ro1 ran out the back and up the hill. Was Dumbledore around as well? He was, wasn't he? He knew that something was up. Which adds to the theory of Albus-being-Harry........

I will agree with Phoenix that there is a connection between Harry and Volde. A Neo-Smith connection, even

[hermoine]

Now I see how it all perfectly fits with the stones!

Let's continue with Rubes's explanation for the future Harry and Hermione = Ha2 and He2

When the latter saw Dumbledore, Fudge and MacNair coming, they hid, and saw themselves coming out of the back. When the excution party was in the hut Ha2 and He2 took Buckbeak under cover. Thus, he was saved, when they came out, the real Trio were running up the hill, Macnair swung his axe in frustration and Hagrid cried. The Trio thought that Buckbeak had died.

It's true though that the movie kills the whole timeturner idea.

[KoNeko]

*grrr* That's why I don't like the time turner. Assuming that time is linear (so what happened ALWAYS happened, and you can't create alternate futures), then we have a problem. Was Buckbeak executed or not? You can't say that he was alive at time T and also executed at the same time. That is a logical contradiction. And who is the "real" Harry and Hermione? There are just different time-stages of the same people - if this doesn't make sense, I can explain temporal stages of identity better, but I didn't want to bore everyone! Anyway, in short: Grrr. [/end rant about thesis topic]

[hermoine]

I thought we were discussing the fact that Buckbeak was never killed, but in the book it is as if he did die because while the trio of the present(I hope that's less confusing)had their backs to Hagrid's hut and so didn't see anything.

The real Harry and Hermione would mean the ones of the present right?


Actually Ko, you're not boring me, you're getting me psyched up to know more! ;D

[Isbister15]

Rubes said:

Do you remember the stones-through-the-window Sphi and Izzy? That'll help

Yes, but that only happened in the movie. In the book they just heard the voices approaching, right?

Rubes said:

Izzy, you said that they turned away from the exectuion. Doesn't that mean they didn't see it?

Yes, in the book I don't believe they saw it. In the movie, they certainly did.

That's what's throwing me off about this whole Time-Turner thing...if we're supposed to believe something is possible in the book, why would they purposely contradict it in the movie?

I understand all the Ha1 and He2 stuff and all that, but it seems to me that you're mixing the actions taking in the book with those taken in the movie, and the two just don't correspond.

[Rubes]

I, unlike you Miss Izzy, don't have a pirated copy of PoA, so I haven't seen the movie in ages Would you care to explain what is different between the movie and the book? And don't bring that crazy Sean character into it. You know he confuses me

[KoNeko]

hermoine said:

The real Harry and Hermione would mean the ones of the present right?

Actually Ko, you're not boring me, you're getting me psyched up to know more! ;D

See, Herm, actually, the "real" Harry and Herm is... both sets of Harry and Herm that are present at the same time. They're both Harry and Hermione, but just one is an earlier version and one is a later version. You can tell which one is the later version because they have memories of the earlier events and different intentions and knowledge and stuff like that about what they have to do. So there is no concept of the "real" H&H, because both of them are just as real. You know, I'm thinking that if the time turner thing stuffed up and they actually saw each other, then what would happen?

[Isbister15]

Rubes said:

I, unlike you Miss Izzy, don't have a pirated copy of PoA, so I haven't seen the movie in ages Would you care to explain what is different between the movie and the book?

You know you want a copy. Well, in the book the kids are not physically looking at the execution when it takes place...they just hear what they believe to be the sounds of it. In the movie, Harry, Ron, and Hermione are standing nearby looking right at it when it happens, so there's no way they could have mistaken Hagrids sobs of grief for sobs of joy.

Also, in the book (unless I'm mistaken, though I just re-read it) there are no stones thrown by Hermione to alert all that the Minister and company are coming. I'm pretty sure they just hear the voices coming that way. So they just made that stone-throwing bit up for the movie. It was cute, but it seems to throw some other things out of wack.

Rubes said:

And don't bring that crazy Sean character into it. You know he confuses me

You confuse me, Rubes...


And Sean's not crazy!

[moira]

My memory of the movie is that although they are there to watch the execution, there is (um...the hut, or the pumpkins, or some sort of object) that obstructs the view of buckbeak, but you see Macnair, and you see the axe swung. They don't have a clear view of buckbeak at all, so I think it can still fit in with what was done in the book.

Isbister15 said:

Also, in the book (unless I'm mistaken, though I just re-read it) there are no stones thrown by Hermione to alert all that the Minister and company are coming. I'm pretty sure they just hear the voices coming that way.

Yup, you're right, it's just the voices they hear. There's no stone-throwing bit at all. My belief is that while Macnair and Dumbledore were inside Hagrid's hut, Dumbledore had peaked through the window and saw Harry and Hermione trying to untie buckbeak, which is why his timing was perfect to cause more of a dilemna with the execution so Harry and Hermione could have more time to untie Buckbeak.

*looks up* I hope that paragraph made sense. But that's why I think Dumbledore gave Hermione and Harry the idea to use the Time-Turner.

I agree that it absolutely boggles the mind, because it means that there is sort of an eternal ripple effect going on. When does it end?

[KoNeko]

See, that's another thing. Dumbledore must have had the idea to use the time turner before he sent H&H back in time obviously, but perhaps the very fact that he saw the future H&H - a product of that very idea - untying Buckbeak etc. was what gave him that idea? And that gives rise to an unexplainable causal loop... *cue scary music*

[Rubes]

Exactly Ko. This is the part where some smartarse (Like me!) would say "But what if Ha2 and He2 had fallen down the stairs and broken an ankle? What then? "

Is not thinking about it a good option?