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Post by En on Mar 27, 2004 10:37:13 GMT -5
I don't know that not wanting to die for people means you're not loyal to them. Loyalty can take a lot of different forms. Self-sacrificing service is one -- but determination to succeed, knowing that you may need others to do things to get you there, is another. Any good general knows that he can't just say his officers were bumheads and that's why the war was lost; if his officers are bumheads, he gets rid of them and replaces them with more competent people, then orders, cajoles, spurs, and otherwise urges the competent people on to overall victory. Isn't that a kind of loyalty -- making sure all the parts of your machine work so that it can carry you to your goal?
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Post by Sphi on Mar 28, 2004 0:57:07 GMT -5
But aren't all the Houses loyal in that respect? I don't think you necessarily have to feel obligated to sacrifice yourself to show loyalty, but everyone seems to want his own House to do well, not just the Slytherins. We may have our "end justifies the means" mentality towards success, but likewise the Gryffs believe in courage and taking chances; the Huffs believe in hard work and integrity; and the Ravens believe in...wise choices? Anyways, each House is out to succeed in his own way, so loyalty doesn't strike me as distinctly Slytherin. Unless you're talking about Death Eaters...I can definitely see a twisted sort of loyalty in them.
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S.S Tigress
Slytherin Alumni
Shots in the dark from empty guns, never heard by anyone
Posts: 1,345
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Post by S.S Tigress on Mar 28, 2004 8:35:38 GMT -5
I don't think it's twisted at all. Just because they're evil doesn't mean that their loyalty is twisted. They're loyal to the their leader, the one they respect and put their trust in to do what is right in their POV.
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Post by Sphi on Mar 28, 2004 13:54:00 GMT -5
Yeah, but their evilness isn't limited to [healthy] bouts of mischeif or anything, like the Slytherins at Hogwarts. The [book] Death Eaters are like the Taliban or the Nazis of the HP world. It's not normal. That sort of loyalty is extremely disturbing.
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Post by Will on Mar 28, 2004 19:49:59 GMT -5
((This took a while for me to write. I had to sort out my thoughts, but here is my reply.))
Disturbing?
Most of the loyalty is ensued by fear, no? Though at first they are most likely more than willing to join the Death Eaters, may it be from influence ((such as family)), the hunger for power, or the simple fact that they agree with the ideology. …Hmmm… I find it understandable… It’s not so much as disturbing as it is pitiful.
Again, I must mention the quote I’ve brought up so many times before. “Evil is a point of view.” We might believe that these people are insane and “evil” for their actions and philosophy, but do we know how they feel about it? Those people who are forced to stay loyal due to fright may see the “evil” after witnessing all the murders and such, but what about those who truly believe that what they are doing is the “right thing”? Forget the power hungry fiends. They aren’t worth my analyzing time…
Conservatives…
Purebloods, those that feel threatened by the growing numbers of the half bloods and muggleborns…. Why is it that fear can cause people to do the damnedest things? Eh. Stupid question.
Well, I’m not sure where I was going with that so I’ll just stop. Now about the Unforgivable Curses. Of course I know you guys aren’t killing machines; I’m not accusing anyone. ((Well, I can think of one person that has potential, but we won’t go there…)) I just don’t like the idea of the curses, that’s all. The very thought of the creation of these curses is what disturbs me.
Again, I have a very distinct, yet intricate view of Slytherin. I wouldn’t know where to being describing it and I bring in aspects of the other three houses into my vision.
If we, as Slytherins, reference something as powerful and destructive such as the killing curse it in our Code of Conduct, what does that say about us? Are the stereotypes of us then proven correct? That we are all just cold-blooded, apathetic, “evil” villains? Aren’t we trying to show everyone that we are so much more than that? It’s one thing to be bitter and cynical. Portraying ourselves as ruthless devils who uses the Cruciatus Curse out of anger… That’s another thing.
I may be taking this far more seriously than it needs to be, but I can’t help it.
To the next topic. Sure, looking out for you and only you is logical in a sense, especially if you trust yourself more than anyone else. I’m sure that’s a large trait for the Slytherins. However, if I can’t trust anyone but myself, what kind of life would that be? Wouldn’t being a part of a larger group, a union of individuals, be safer in the long run? Safer than standing alone? And loyalty is being a little too dramatized here. Isn’t something such as keeping a secret considered loyalty to another? No, you don’t have to risk your life for another… but I suppose I would.
I read somewhere that Aquarians, such as myself, tend to be self-indulged. We do things in our own best interest… It’s true. One of my less positive attributes. And I think it’s a trait that has grown over the years… My mom even accuses me of it… That’s the sort of Slytherin I am. I like the glory of doing something miraculous. I won’t deny it. A complete opposite of you, Silver. “All eyes on me.” But I know when to stop. I don’t flaunt or boast. That just turns the table on you…
Slowly I slither my way to the top.
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Post by Sphi on Mar 28, 2004 22:11:37 GMT -5
but what about those who truly believe that what they are doing is the “right thing”?
Conservatives…
if I can’t trust anyone but myself, what kind of life would that be? Wouldn’t being a part of a larger group, a union of individuals, be safer in the long run? Safer than standing alone? And loyalty is being a little too dramatized here. Isn’t something such as keeping a secret considered loyalty to another?
That’s the sort of Slytherin I am. I like the glory of doing something miraculous. I won’t deny it. A complete opposite of you, Silver. “All eyes on me.” But I know when to stop. I don’t flaunt or boast. That just turns the table on you…
It doesn't matter to me why they joined the Death Eaters in the book. It makes for an interesting study of human character, but it doesn't make it right. Remember what Sirius said? "Then you should have died. Died rather than betray your friends..." So you can't blame familial influences or fear. I know fear makes you irrational at times, but it doesn't excuse you from being a maniac. And do you have any idea what ideology you're standing up for? The supremacy of purebloods over all other humans and creatures? The right to use cruelty against any who stands in your way? That's not right.
Again, I don't see how that sort of loyalty is distinctly Slytherin. I know what you're getting at, but I think Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs, and Ravenclaws would say the same thing. If you ask me, Slytherins are more loyal to their own ideas and goals than to others. That's why they'll keep the secrets they do, or why they'll make sure they have enough allies.
I'm not saying the Unforgivable Curses are okay, and I'm not saying I wanted to add them to our Code. I just wanted to know why you were so against them, that's all.
But I don't understand what you meant when you wrote "conservatives" or when you said that you're a complete opposite of me.
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Post by Will on Mar 30, 2004 0:41:16 GMT -5
But-But… That’s not the point I was making. I think you misunderstood…You know how much I oppose the Death Eaters. No, I’m not I’m not standing up for their philosophy; I don’t believe that what they do is right. I’m just saying that I can understand why they are doing what they do. And remember the category of people who actually want to be a Death Eater, not due to fear or power? I can see it in their perspective. They believe that Purebloods are divine, the only ones worthy to live, and so they seek to destroy all those who are “tainted”. ((Those like Mr. Malfoy.)) But that doesn’t mean that I, myself, agree with it.
I have this thing that I do, I’m not sure why or when I started doing it… If I dislike someone for whatever reason or feel any kind of negativity towards another, I try to figure out why this person behaves the way he/she does. Take this guy I meant from Stagecraft. He was being a complete arse when I tried to help out with the set. I came home feeling aggravated and, quite simply, pissed. This guy had the nerve to make fun of me and my other actor friends when we were lending them, the techies, a hand! Is it right to talk badly about those who try to help out? I don’t think so. But in any case, I tried to understand why he would do such a thing, and I figured out the reason. Apparently he believes that all actors are arrogant, inconsiderate jerks who should all just rot in hell… Understandable. I still have a grudge against him, but now I know that he isn’t being an imbecile for no reason at all.
Did you grasp all that?
And again, I must say that that was just my own Slytherin philosophy. I suppose I was just describing the kind of Slytherin I am. I can go on depicting every last detail of my serpent ways, but no one is really interested, I presume.
Yes, I know you just wanted to ask me about the Unforgivable Curses, Love. That’s why I answered. Like I said, I didn’t intend to point fingers at anyone. I’m sorry if I made you feel that way.
I was referring to the fanatical Purebloods when I mentioned “conservatives”. You know how they want everything like it was before; a dominate pureblood population…
You must admit, you and I are pretty different. You like to stay hidden and prefer not to draw attention where as I, on the other hand, enjoy showing the world my talents… or at least just in school…
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Post by Sphi on Mar 30, 2004 1:15:48 GMT -5
Oh okay. We can all make our predictions about what's running through minds like theirs, I suppose.
Are they considered "conservatives"? I'd call them radicals, but whatever.
So you're saying that you hold grudges but try not to, which is why you try to think in other people's perspectives? I guess that could be one Slytherin philosophy, that we are passionate but temper our furor so that things don't go too far. *nods* Makes sense to me. I do that too, although different Slytherins take that in different ways, either in a "positive" way or in a "negative" way. Passion can be enthusiasm (which I guess would sorta be like me at times), or it can be jealousy/anger (which would be more like you?). Following that philosophy, the problem with many of the book Slytherins would be that they don't hold back, whether it be boasting (too much enthusiasm) or taunting (too much resentment).
See? We definitely want to hear your opinions. If it can spark some interesting conversation, it's good. *pauses* It seems terribly ironic that I just said that.
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S.S Tigress
Slytherin Alumni
Shots in the dark from empty guns, never heard by anyone
Posts: 1,345
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Post by S.S Tigress on Mar 30, 2004 18:45:42 GMT -5
Apparently he believes that all actors are arrogant, inconsiderate jerks who should all just rot in hell…
Oh you didn't know that? Almost all techies who don't perform in shows as well, think that. Terrible I know, but it's just the way things are. In one of the high schools in my town, up in the catwalk, on a wall someone spray-painted "Actors Suck!" They also have tally marks for each Spring Musical they do of how many non-technical screw ups happen each night.
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Post by Sphi on Mar 30, 2004 19:43:55 GMT -5
*odd feeling of déjà vu* Haven't we had this conversation before? I could've swore that someone mentioned before how crew tends to hold some sort of grudge against actors.
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Post by Will on Mar 30, 2004 20:57:38 GMT -5
Eh. Conservatives, radicals, whatever. I can't say I'm familiar with all of them. Can't call then liberals though...
Really? That’s awful and a bit immature. I didn't think the techies hated us. Actually, it's only that one guy who seems to really detest us. The other techies just find it hard to be amongst us? Then again, I do have a few techie mates.
It's true. Some of the actors can be a bit full of themselves and they even go as far as to joke about the techies. "Clean up? That's the techies' job." But not all of us are like that. I find it idiotic for him to view all actors that way. I mean, whenever we are around him, he gives us this nasty scowl. He’s very unapproachable.
Anyhow… I realized that others can’t view the pictures that I took and so I’ll just post them here. They are mostly pictures of the actors backstage and the set. Hope you like them! And no, you aren’t going to see a me in any of the pictures. ;D
My favourite prop The whole thing ((From left)) Blake, Father Mulcahy and Duke. Ho Jon and “Hot Lips” are playing Yu-Gi-Oh!!! Lol. Makeup artist in training is doing Nancy’s … well… makeup… You can see a bit of Ho Jon’s hair and Spearchucker in the back. Just backstage stuff. You see that wall? I’ll get my name on there once I’m a senior. Mark my words! Eh. I'm too lazy to list all the characters. That's one of the dressing rooms that you see. ((guys' dressing room)) Trapper John being his usual cocky self... Isn't Bridget pretty? She sings beautifully. Girls' dressing room... filled with guys... Blurry... Last, but not least, our beloved drama teacher and tech director!
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Post by Sphi on Mar 31, 2004 17:57:51 GMT -5
I can't get Weather out of my head, having just read the whole thing from the beginning again. So when I came up to the dialogue between En and the Gryffs, I thought it totally applied to what we were talking about before, with the book Slytherin/Death Eater ideology thing. Here, just read the quote. And if you haven't read En's story yet, good God! Start reading!
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Post by Will on Mar 31, 2004 20:47:47 GMT -5
Cheers! That is precisely what I was talking about! Hit it right on the dot!! ;D Thank goodness someone sees this...
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Post by Sphi on Mar 31, 2004 23:02:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree with that totally. Maybe it's just because it's written so convincingly and worded perfectly. Okay, I guess that ends that discussion. In that passage lies all the answers.
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S.S Tigress
Slytherin Alumni
Shots in the dark from empty guns, never heard by anyone
Posts: 1,345
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Post by S.S Tigress on Apr 1, 2004 20:16:51 GMT -5
En, ENlightens us all. Heh heh, get it? Oh I'm so quick with puns.....
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