On Capital Punishment.

[KoNeko]

So, an Australian was hanged in Singapore today for importing just under 400 grams of heroin.

He was 25. (Which is my age.)

It was his first offence, and he was doing it to clear the debts of his twin brother. He was caught at Singapore Airport in 2002 and imprisoned for 3 years, before being executed.

In Singapore, a drug offence carries a mandatory death penalty, along with murder and kidnapping.

According to Amnesty International, about 420 people have been executed in Singapore since 1991, mostly for drug offences. Many of those hanged were foreigners. Relative to its population of 4.2 million, Singapore has the highest execution rate in the world.

I'll write more later, but is this right? How could something like this be allowed to happen in what we think is supposed to be a first-world country? And by hanging? Capital punishment is barbaric, violates international human rights and is unnecessary. I can't even begin to express my outrage at this.

[[ Wiz ]]

Personally I couldnt agree with you more Ko.
I think it's completely out-of-order that the government is making such rash decisions for such petty crimes. I mean murder is completely another thing - and had it been that offence I think it would've been slightly more justifiable. In this situation I think the act was barbaric....even more so when you look at the fact that the guy was only doing it to to clear the debts of his brother and that he was merely 25.
I think some governments are so obssesed on weeding out crime that they have become ruthless in the decisions they make that they no longer weigh and judge each individual crime indivdiually - they just have a "crime" and the "punishment" written down which is followed no matter what the personal situation of the criminal is.

My personal view on Capital Punishment is that it should be a penalty only for murder....there is no excuse at all for murder (unless your mentally ill or are being blackmailed to committ murder).

[KoNeko]

Thanks for responding Wiz. There is a good bunch of articles at www.stophanging.com on the case of the Australian guy I mentioned. And a good discussion forum going on as well... this thing goes WAY deeper than you may think. Check it out if you have time.

I oppose capital punishment in any form, and for anyone. I don't think even murderers should be executed - taking into all mitigating circumstances (such as whether it was a first offence, whether there was personal gain, possibility of rehabilitation etc.), I still think that the most cold-blooded mass murderer should be simply incarcerated for life. Did you know that it costs more to execute someone by lethal injection (which, as I can see it, would be the only REMOTELY humane way of execution) than to keep someone in prison for the term of their natural life? Retribution simply doesn't work. Oh, and deterrence. Capital punishment has little to no deterrent value. There's plenty of evidence for that as well.

[Calavera Diablos]

Clearing the debts of his twin brother by resorting to drug trafficing? Sounds bloody great to me. He might as well have murdered people by continuing to circulate a drug that ruins millions of people's lives. He might as well have stuck them all with aids riddled needles while he was at it. I don't care if he had a family of six starving children to feed, he KNEW the consequences of getting involved with illegal drugs, so I have no sympathy at all for him.

Having never lived in Singapore myself, I'm not going to be so arrogant as to think I know how to run their government better than they do. Perhaps the people of Singapore have had a long, rough history with drugs and the dirty money it's brought in so they feel it's neccessary to use capital punishment. I just don't think it's right to go around and say what's best for other countries you have no extensive knowledge of or have had any experience LIVING in.

While I don't like capital punishment, I feel it is a neccessary evil. Hell, I live in a country where the city can get sued for filming people breaking traffic laws without their permission, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. As for incarceration what about the founder of the Crips that everybody's getting so bleeding heart about freeing? A man who is being revered as some sort of martyr because he claims he's reformed? A man who laughed as one of his victims gurgled on his own blood as he died and despite his jail sentence, continued to support the gangster lifestyle and power and influenced people to become killers? Eh. Incarceration can only do so much.

[nancy]

I do not believe it was enough reason to kill him. He wasn't going to ruin the people's lives, whether ti take the drugs or not is a PERSONAL choice. They are there, but you can choose not to take them.
He barely took any drugs anyway. The government of singapore overestimated the number of his by 4 times approximately.
and the death penalty is just cruel.
for it to be equiparable with murder, even, the killer would have to:
a) incarcerate the victim for a few years
b)submit the victim to a trial of sorts (which as is usual with death penalty cases, would prolly become a circus of sorts)
c) incarcerate the victim for another period of time, telling them what the exact date and time of their death will be.
That is just cruel.
And goodness, think of the families!
I wonder how his brother's feelin right now....

[Calavera Diablos]

I realize it's a personal choice, having been hooked on coke for most of my early highschool years. I don't blame the dealer I bought from for my mistake, but the fact that you're don't think this man's posession with intent to sell one of the most debilitating narcotics isn't grounds for punishment according to the country, whose rules and regulations HE knowingly violated to earn some easy money, shocks me.

Oh and concerning his brother's debts? While trying to help is quite chivalrous, maybe his brother needs a wake up call and should deal with it himself so he can learn to live within his means.

While taking drugs is a personal choice, how could you live yourself selling drugs, knowing what effects drugs like heroin and crystal meth have on people? Were the debts so bad, they couldn't have figured about a monthly payment system and maybe gotten better jobs? How bad were the debts and why did his brother get into debt in the first place, that's what I want to know.

[Nie]

I'm sorry, but I really don't think that drug trafficing is a serious enough offence to warrant the death penalty. I can barely see the justification for using the death penalty as a punishment for murder. The only crime I can think of with enough justification to use it is genocide.

People do stupid things sometimes to care for the people they love. For all we know the reason his twin brother was in debt was because he had been laid off from his job and wasn't yet ab;e to get another one.

I can see why the guy wanted to help out his twin brother. When I was a kid my mum was always scraping to make ends meet. We lived in a small town and jobs that would allow my mum to work the right hours to be able to look after all 5 children were almost non-existant. Out of desperation to feed 5 kids and make sure the bills were paid on time she sold cannabis, and on a few occasions sold speed. She wasn't proud of it and would have done almost anything else to make a living, but at the time she couldn't find any other means of making money and being at home with us kids enough to take care of us. She knows she was lucky that she didn't get caught and knew the risks, but she felt they were worth it if it gave her a chance to provide for us properly.

The death penalty just isn't right. Imprisonment for a period and/or large fines I can understand, but not death. Although, apparently death by hanging is still one of the quickest and classed as one of the most humane ways of killing somoene. If an Execution by Hanging is performed correctly then the person's neck is broken instantly and the person is deadin mere seconds. It's also much, much cheaper than injection, which is probably why Singapore has opted to use it.

I think the worst part of this whole thing is that the guy was caught and arrested while still inside the airport. As far as I know that meant he was still on international ground and he was meant to have been deported immediately back to his home country to be trialed, not kept in Singapore. It's an international agreement that Singapore failed to uphold. He should have been brought back to Australia and trialed here. He would have only had to serve a term in prison and maybe paid some hefty fines. He should still be alive.

[hermoine]

Personally I see no form of justification for Capital Punishment. As some of you guys have said, it's better to let the guy in prison for the rest of his life, depending on the act.

In this case I find it truly barbaric to kill someone for bringing in drugs. Why, if that were the case, I wonder how many people would be killed here each year. Capital Punishment is of course not allowed here.

About what you said Cala, I just saw a piece of news on it yesterday. I read a book about it once. I see your point about the man. I mean, just because a man says he's reformed and all that stuff doesn't mean he truly has. Drug dealers, killers and such in history said those same lines and went back to their past activity. But, I don't know all the details of the case, so I won't go more into that.

[Calantha]

As far as the death penalty, in Virginia the govenor is going back through a man's case who was convicted of murdering his sister-in-law and using new DNA testing to determine if he committed the crime or not. However, the man has already been executed. Basically the people against the death penalty are looking for this to help persuade people, but on the other hand, the money it's going to cost if it happens they have to do DNA testing for everyone on death row or have been executed already could take away from other fundings. So there's sort of a bit of an uproar with Virginians, but ultimately it's probably a political move for our govenor who is looking to run in the primary in most minds, I think.

Anyways, to end the death penalty would provide problems on how to handle the cases when our jails here are already incredibly overcrowded and the money/support for rehibiliation is low. Although I don't agree with the death penalty, I can understand why some people may feel it is beneficial to the state. Not to mention the families of the victim of a murder and the effects of simple jailing for life. While I personally think it would be worse to live with your crime for the rest of your life, making jail for life a worse fate than the death penalty, a lot of people see the other side.

I don't know, I think it's a tricky subject and while ideally it's great to be against the death penalty, I see why people are for it.

[hermoine]

So I suppose this topic could use a bump also considering the great connection it has with Saddam Hussein's recent sentence to death which has just been appealed for.

What are you guys' thoughts on the case?

Personally, I'm still against the idea of Capital Punishment. Yes he was a dictator, and yes he is responsible for genocide but still, for me, a sentence to death is the easy way out. And what's more...what of the possible consequences his death could bring about? Anyone thought of revolts breaking out? Further terrorism?!

[KoNeko]

Good idea, Hermy.

I am not happy with the death sentence. At all. In a way, it is probably the most direct way for the people who were wronged to have some equivalent retribution, but I don't think that two wrongs make a right. Revenge is not the right motivation in asking for a death sentence.

[Simply Panda]

calantha said:

...to end the death penalty would provide problems on how to handle the cases when our jails here are already incredibly overcrowded and the money/support for rehibiliation is low. Although I don't agree with the death penalty, I can understand why some people may feel it is beneficial to the state. Not to mention the families of the victim of a murder and the effects of simple jailing for life.

Though this is a tricky subject, I believe that alleviating the pressure on our pockets is not reason enough to sentence someone to death. The fact of the matter is, more than a few people have been executed prior to being proven innocent. Are we willing to sacrifice these people to the god of capitalist greed?

Furthermore... why is it that people who are pro-capital punishment, tend to also be pro-life? It’s a conundrum I will never quite understand.

Sorry if I’ve digressed... but yes, against the Saddam Hussein ruling. Even if we know he’s guilty, what is killing him really going to accomplish? Is this supposed to set an example to the rest of the world? If so, who gave us the power to do this?

I apologize for this rant... college has obviously turned me into a crazy liberal.

[KoNeko]

Crazy liberals of the world, unite.

Does the pro-CP and pro-life conundrum also go the other way? So the people who are pro-choice are also anti-CP? Isn't that the same problem? (I admit, I probably fall into that category.)

[Simply Panda]

Interesting thing to think about... as far as the abortion issue goes, I have mixed feelings. I don’t feel like it should be taken away, but I don’t think I could ever do it (make sense?) I guess it comes down to what you consider a person. Not so long ago, all forms of birth control were illegal because you would mess up god’s plan, and take away the potential for life. When does a fertilized egg go from being the potential for life to a human being?

[Fluffy]

Panda, I think you hit on something important there. I personally believe that it needs to be a matter of choice, and that the choice needs to be assisted by help from one's community if possible (obviously, a lack of support from one's community would mean that the child wouldn't be supported, and that is one of the considerations a person has to go through under circumstances like that)... and I also personally believe that the government should not be involved.

With regards to capital punishment - I think the sentencing of Hussein was heavily motivated by the 2006 elections, and that is unqualifiedly wrong.