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Post by En on Dec 13, 2003 12:34:03 GMT -5
^^^ Yeah, what she said.
I completely agree -- Percy's faith in the Ministry is still unshaken, and part of the problem there is that Fudge gave him a nice job after he really messed up. Percy thinks he can do no wrong now. The other part of the problem is that Percy still thinks everything can be reasoned out and good conclusions can be reached that are Right for Everyone, by the Government. But that's simply never the case, and very much not the case when a corrupt person is in power.
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Natz
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Post by Natz on Dec 15, 2003 5:18:17 GMT -5
I agree with Li on this one. I mean Percy has still to realise it is still possible for him to do wrong no matter how much fudge wants him there because at the moment he doesn't seem to realise that fudge is keeping him there because he is so easily led.
I think part of the problem is that Percy doesn't want to have to go back to his family after what he said to them and have his pride wounded and as Li said he wants to make it more than his father.
The trouble with fudge is that there seems to be no reasoning behind his decisions and he only cares about it if they will put dumbledore in a bad light or on the line.
Do you think after what happened in the ootp that Percys faith in the ministry will be shaken a bit if fudge admits he is wrong?
At the moment i have a doubt at whether fudge will actually admitt that he was wrong about the existence of voldermot because it will make him and the ministry look bad and he could loose his job over it. But if he doesn't admit the existence of voldermort then he will also be in trouble so fudge has to deal with a double edged sword.
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Post by Nie on Dec 15, 2003 21:18:22 GMT -5
The Ministry certainly has alot ot answer for. It's kinda hard to say what Fudge will do, because admitting that Dumbledore was right and that Voldemort has returned will make Dumbledore look good which Fudge doesn't want, and it will also either make the Ministry look like it's not doing it's job, ir they will have to say they knew and withheld the information which could cost Fudge his job. Catch 22.
As for when and if Percy will turn around, I have no idea. He's been blinded by ambition and the feeling he needs to prove himself. Who knows when he'll open his eyes.
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Natz
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Post by Natz on Dec 16, 2003 9:43:14 GMT -5
occ- i loved that book. bic- Yes it is a bit of a catch 22 for fudge but then he set himself up for it so he has to be prepared to accept responsibility the problem is that i don't think that he will as from the start he has been in fear of losing his job at the ministry. That would be one way to get round the catch 22 that fudge has to face by sacking him or depromoting him and promoting someone who deserves the position and is more reliable and not just using it to suck up to people to get them on their side.
Any suggestions?
I'm starting to doubt Percys strength of character so either he will surprise us all by showing that he has got the bravery and the strength of character to go against fudge if fudge is still in the ministry at this point and go back to his family but will he be able to swallow his pride?
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Post by Nie on Dec 17, 2003 5:04:21 GMT -5
I think that's the weakness of some Gryffindors - they're too proud for their own good. I think Percy will turn around eventually, but not before his arrogance and amibitious drive has done a fair bit of damage. Unfortunately, Percy has alienated himself from the people who would have helped him to make the hard decisions that lay before him and now he'll have to make those choices on his own. What choices he ends up making and when is what will truly show how much strength is in his character, I feel.
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Natz
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Post by Natz on Dec 17, 2003 5:25:22 GMT -5
I agree that what choices he makes will show how much character and courage he has in him and whether or not the sorting hat made a mistake as it has made mistakes in the past.
I think Percy is too ambitious for his own good. He is only doing it so he can prove that he can be better than his brothers and not doing it because he enjoys it. On a side note i do think he enjoys work.
Do you think he supported fudge because if he didn't he would have been kicked out the ministry in accordance to the events of crouch the year before?
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Post by hermoine on Dec 19, 2003 15:56:52 GMT -5
Natz, the sorting hats didn't do any mistake. If you're reffering to Harry not being in Slytherin, well Harry himself didn't want to be one, and infact Dumbledore said that the sorting hats places the students according to which house they'd like to go.
Just think Hermione wanted to be a Gryff and she became one although she had wonderful qualities for a Raven. Draco wanted to become a Slyth, and he did. It all fits.
I think he did. He was just one of those who just wouldn't believe that Voldemort was back, partly because he thought that whatever his father said was wrong.
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Post by En on Dec 20, 2003 0:18:51 GMT -5
Actually, I think the hat can make mistakes. Not like 2 x 2 = 5 kind of mistakes, but like there might have been a better option kind of mistakes. I think if the hat had put Tom Riddle in Gryffindor, he might have learned how to work with other people, instead of feeling like he was always alone; and that might have saved thousands of lives. Not that it was wrong exactly to put him in Slytherin, just that he might have learnt how to be a good wizard better if he'd been in a different house.
With Percy, the hat did try to put him where he'd learn how to be a good leader and a good member of the family, but Percy didn't quite learn everything; he still thinks his ideals are more important than his family, and that's going to bite him in the butt. But at least the hat tried, you know? It might have been smarter to put him in Hufflepuff or something; but the world is full of what-ifs. Maybe if he'd been in Huff he would have really, really resented that he was the only non-Gryff in the family. Who knows?
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Post by hermoine on Dec 20, 2003 6:37:57 GMT -5
Guess Percy would have resented it. But he wasn't chosen in Gryff because his family was in there before him. 'cause if you take Parvati and Padma Patil, then ahoy! they ain't in the same house. It's the character.
And with Tom Riddle again, I htink he wanted to become a Slytherin. Also, if he was the heir of Salazar Slyhterin, how oculdn't he be a Slyth?
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Post by En on Dec 20, 2003 11:14:25 GMT -5
Because the hat doesn't care what your bloodline is unless that matters to you. Parvati and Padma probably didn't want to be together, or needed to be separated to do their growing up properly; Percy probably did get in Gryffindor because the Hat would know that he'd have felt seriously upset if he'd been singled out and put in a different house. With Tom, the Hat probably did put him in Slyth because he wanted it. I don't know whether he's a descendant of Slytherin or not, though -- I think what's important in his being Slytherin's "heir" is that he believed in the same things Slytherin did.
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Post by hermoine on Dec 21, 2003 6:29:32 GMT -5
Yup!
Going back to Percy, again he has qualities he hasn't shown, yet, and I guess they will show more in the coming books. We know that Pride is something the Gryffs ;D value a lot. But has Percy shown pride?
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Natz
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Post by Natz on Dec 21, 2003 6:42:52 GMT -5
occ- i go away for one day and look at all the posts. Good going you guys Bic- Actually Percy has shown pride over his work and when he acheives the results he wants to acheive and sadly he is also pround of deserting his family hopefully this will change in the next book but i don't think there is one specific type of pride for gryffindors but i do think that Percy should learn to think about his family and if he does desert the ministry that will prove he is brave to go back on his word.
I agree with En the sorting hat did make a mistake and in the second book it admitted it to harry by saying 'i have been known to make mistakes in the past'
Thats a good point En that possibly that percy subconciously chose gryffindor because if he didn't he knew that his family would possibly treat him differently as Ron in the first book was frigetened of ending up in a different house especially the one that you know who went to.
Maybe tom riddle might have done better in a different house where he got taught different values but i guess if humans can make mistakes so can talking hats.
The next book should show us whether percy has enough courage in him to go back to his family or that he wants to continue denying the fact voldermort is back. I think that sooner or later he will meet his match.
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Post by Nie on Dec 21, 2003 10:15:58 GMT -5
Percy has shown pride because he's currently too proud of himself getting into the Ministry and moving up in rank there to have anything to do with his family which at the moment he thinks of as lower than him. He was also very, very proud when he got his prefects badge and flaunted it to everyone he could for weeks before school went back.
But Percy's pride is going to be his weakness, to a point. He's going to have to learn to overcome his pride and admit he's not as good as he'd like to think and that he's not as above his family as he'd like everyone to believe. He has to learn to be proud of the right things as well, like being proud of being part of his family.
They do say pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and it's because too much pride can unmake a person and land them in big trouble. I think Percy is headed for that.
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Natz
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Post by Natz on Dec 21, 2003 13:24:11 GMT -5
Yes pride is one of the seven deadly sins and percy is going to get dealt the dish of revenge where one option will seem worse than the other. I just hope he choses the right one otherwise he is going to regret it. Such as when Dr faustus was so proud that he sold his soul he forgot he was going to die(play by marlow)
If he does move back with his family he is going to have to learn how to swallow his pride and eat humble pie.
Just sligthly off topic. I never understood why he was so proud of being a prefect i mean they never made a big deal out of it over here.
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Post by Nie on Dec 21, 2003 15:16:53 GMT -5
I think the reason Percy made a big deal out of it was because he is a middle child in a big family and so perhaps felt he had to try and make himself shine all that more brightly so his parents and siblings would notice him and give him the praise he'd seen his older brother's recieve before him.
As a few have said, Percy probably feels he has some high standards to live up to because of what Bill and Charlie have already achieved, and he could even be jealous of them being so successful and not feeling lower than everyone else just because they are Weasley's. Bill and Charlie are proud they are part of their family, but Percy seemed to drift away from the family throughout the books, as if he thought other wizards would think better of him if he associated with his family as little as possible, or that being around his family less would make him less Weasley like.
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